Debate on Facebook With Atheist Libertarian Friend

(Quote)>>I will coalesce with persons of any religion or lack of religion if they sincerely recognize and promote a simple premise: Good government is limited government.<<

Agreed , for the most part....

But!... Not when they set man up as the arbitrator and giver of our rights. How can we go forward in Freedom & Liberty, if we don't know where our roots come from?... See More

I've done many, many hours of research, and study on the elements of our founding. What the founders believed and what shaped their philosophy and ideals

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... Declaration of Independents.

For who is the ultimate arbitrator of our freedoms and rights, but God? Our rights are God given, and no man, party or organization should be lifted up as the arbitrator of those rights. Or to our everlasting detriment, we can expect to kiss those rights goodbye. The historical evidence bares this out.

How can we be the nation our founders envisioned, through Divine Providence unless we at least acknowledge the impact of our Christian heritage in influencing our fight for Liberty and Freedom.

Thomas Paine almost lost his life in The French Revolution because he believed in the goal of a Godless society. And what did that Godless revolution bring, but the blood of it's own innocent citizens running in the street. On the other hand, the American Revolution was a religious one.

Did you know that the American Revolution was not always known by that name... It use to be known as the Presbyterian Revolt. No one knows this fact of history. And it's a travesty that so much of our history that was influenced by our Christian Heritage has been deliberately expunged for the fallacious agenda of a totally secular society. With no acknowledgment of the role our Christian Heritage played in our founding.

This is first opportunity I've had to respond in depth... to many irons in fire.

As to our founders being atheist... yes Paine was...Ethan Allen was... but I don't know that he would be considered as one that shaped our founding documents. But for sure the founders believed that a free society needed to be undergirded with religious morality... Because a moral and religious people will self restrain themselves... which in turn would mean a smaller government. Not needing to grow bigger in order to restrain lawlessness, through lack of virtue.

The Founders are usually said to be deists or atheists... I've heard that ad nauseum. The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.... See More

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.[1]

This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity. Jefferson, in his own words called himself a Christian... read "The Real Thomas Jefferson."

Even Franklin the deist is equivocal. He was raised in a Puritan family and later adopted then abandoned deism. Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.

And have we forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.[2]

Three of the four cornerstones of the Constitution--Franklin, Washington, and Madison--were firmly rooted in Christianity.

A country that was founded on Biblical principles is now deliberately destroying a foundation that has made us who we are as a nation.... How can we continue the legacy of liberty, freedom and prosperity when we deliberately destroy the very foundational and historical structure of our Republic? Our very laws are predicated on Biblical precepts, and the moral code of Western Civilization, Judeo-Christianity. And THAT moral code reflects Natural Law which is an essential element in our nation's "freedom and unity" formula. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence begins with an appeal to "the laws of nature and of nature's God."

Don't believe me??

The National Center for Constitutional Studies
Natural Law
Natural Law: The Basis of Moral Government
http://www.nccs.net/newsletter/apr97nl.html

Library of Congress
Religion in America
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion
THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
I guess the ACLU would have sued Jefferson and Madison as well... and been laughed out of court... as they should be.

Biblical Roots of American Liberty
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/biblical-roots-of-american-liberty/#

THE BLACK REGIMENT LED THE FIGHT IN OUR WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read_blackregiment.html

The Blackstone Institute
Sir William Blackstone
The Ten Commandments are at the heart of Blackstone's philosophy. Blackstone taught that man is created by God and granted fundamental rights by God. Man’s law must be based on God’s law. Our Founding Fathers referred to Blackstone more than to any other English or American authority. Blackstone’s great work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, was basic to the U. S. Constitution.
http://www.blackstoneinstitute.org/sirwilliamblackstone.html

There is no such thing as a cultural and moral vacuum. Something other than our historical Christian heritage will fill that vacuum... We are slowly committing national ideological suicide. Because all we have as a ethnically diverse nation, are IDEAS and IDEALS of liberty and freedom expressed in our founding documents.... And to ignore the fundamental, historical foundations of those precepts is to put in jeopardy those very tenets of espoused liberty and freedom....

Do I expect or demand that everyone become a Christian... Of course not!!... But I do expect them to at least acknowledge the impact and influence of our Christian Heritage on the founding of our nation... and how that influence contributed to our liberty and freedom, as it influenced the philosophy of the Founders..

As I've already stated... Our rights are God given, and no man, party or organization should be lifted up as the arbitrator of those rights. Or to our everlasting detriment, we can expect to kiss those rights goodbye. Just look at the historical evidence for yourself.

Whew!! Thanksgiving has been very busy... but I finally have time to answer your post, Just want you know that I wasn't ignoring you, and I do appreciate your comments.

(Quote)>>Basically you are saying that you do not want the support of people who do not agree with your religious views<<

No, I don't believe I said that all... My commentary was for no other purpose other than to give folks the evidence of America's Judo-Christian heritage, and how that philosophical influence contributed to the liberties and ... See More
freedoms we have today. Don't get me wrong... In no way am I advocating for a Theocracy. And of course I strongly support the 1st Amendment. But as I stated before... their is no such thing as a vacuum. EVERY society and culture has some ideology, or philosophy of morality that undergirds the functioning of civic life. Ours happens to be the moral code of Western Civilization, which is Judeo-Christianity.

And yes, I've read all the quotes cited by atheists, radical secularist concerning the Founders hatred of Christianity and religion. And in my research, their out of context quotes don't hold water.

I have no problem forming coalitions with folks of any faith, or none, who are advocating for smaller government.... But I have to point out, that some beliefs are not conducive to freedom and liberty... As Larry Schweikart said in his book... "A Patriot's History of the United States".... Consequently America, while attaching itself to no specific variant of Christianity, operated on an understanding that the Nation would adopt an unofficial "Generic" Christianity that fit hand in glove with Republicanism... Alexis de Toequeville, whose perceptive "Democracy in America" (1835) provided a virtual road map for the future direction of the young nation, observed that the United States... the spirit of religion, and the spirit of freedom "were intimately united... and that they reigned in common over the same country. Americans, he added, viewed religion as indispensable to the maintenance of the Republican Institutions," because it facilitated free Institutions.Certain fundamentals seemed unanimously agreed upon: Posting the Ten Commandments in public places was appropriate; prayers in virtually all official and public functions were expected. America was particularly Blessed because of her trust in God; and even when individuals in civic life did not ascribe to a specific faith, they were expected to act like "good Christians" and conduct themselves as would a believer.

Politicians like Washington walked a fine line between maintaining the secularist form, and yet supplying the necessary spiritual substance. In part, this explains why so many of the early writings and speeches of the Founders were both timeless and uplifting. Their message of spiritual "virtue" cloaked in republican processes of civic duty, reflected a sense of Providential mission for the young country.

A long winded explanation to be sure on my position... but just an explanation of where I stand.... to cut to the chase... I agree with you... (Quote)>>limited government is of key importance, is it not, for limiting the stupid overreaching government mandates that restrict your religion?<<

Common ground can be found... But not at the expense of advocating for a Godless, MAN ordained society, where man is lifted up as the arbitrator of our rights.

Even if folks are unbelievers... or of whatever faith... We much at least acknowledge where many of the influences came from that our Founders espoused and articulated in our founding documents. It's disingenuous and deceitful not to. And in that deceit, and intentional omission, is a planned agenda of destroying America from within.... See More

As for me, I'll stick with the philosophy, and belief system that brought America to the dance... Without it... just like Rome... an inner rot will, and in many cases, has taken hold.

For by what authority do we cite for the statement... "that all men are created equal?"... Many would say that it is intrinsic... well who says?? If left to man... Tyrants and despots would say not... Cite the authority for the previous statement. Thomas Jefferson did just that... For we are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Homosexual Indoctrination in the Public Schools

Obviously we have a lot of folks that have no idea of the history of Conservatism... starting with Edmund Burke... you can't build a sound foundation for anything without knowing where the concepts and philosophies that you say you support come from. How can you defend your position against Marxist ideas of high taxes, larger, ever growing government, entitlements, and redistribution of wealth if you have no foundational basis to argue from.

Ohhh don't say the C word it might upset some... to bad!!! Conservatism represents a history of what works, and what doesn't over time... We fight to conserve those ideals of smaller gov't, lower taxes, individual, and national sovereignty and adhering to our foundational, fundamental Constitutional principles.

AND!!!! Until the federal government gets out of the public schools, I will fight homosexual indoctrination of our kids till my last breath.

A person's sexual appetite is none of my business, but on the other hand, don't expect me and my family, through force of government to condone, embrace, encourage and sanction whatever bizarre, aberrant sexual appetite some might fancy.

I like to ask those who support homosexuality, just what homosexual sex position do you prefer being taught to your kids in the government schools? Maybe the booklet that was taught and handed out to kids in Massachusetts will help you choose. None of this radical societal reorganization is done in a vacuum. Everyone's children will be targeted for indoctrination, in order to subvert the historical and traditional values taught by the parents.

"The Little Black Book - Queer in the 21st Century"

Is this the future? This booklet was distributed to hundreds of kids (middle school age and up) at Brookline High School, Brookline, MA, on April 30, 2005. It was written by the Boston-based AIDS Action Committee, with help with the Massachusetts Department of Public Health and the Boston Public Health Commission.
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/black_book/black_book_inside.html

We already see this transformation going on in Calf. where historical and traditional gender terms such as Mother, Father, husband and wife are being removed from school text books, because of discriminatory complaints. Oh yeah!... the mainstreaming of homosexuality, and that deceptive, and bogus argument that same-sex marriage will not effect any one else's life is just duplicitous and egregiously fallacious. . Give me a break!!!!